what hath we wrought?
i figure this is a pretty cut-and-dried kind of a concept...
"The man said,
'This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman,'
for she was taken out of man.'
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." (Genesis 2:23-24)
and for those who like to believe that the old testament is no longer relevant today, particularly to the topic at hand, i offer up this new testament passage wherein Jesus Himself thought it was important enough to quote from genesis...
"Haven't you read,' he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." (Matthew 19: 4-5)
so, what's all the fuss about? just a little news item that, i think, merits more air time than it's been getting... definitely more than paris hilton going to jail or lindsay lohan's new movie coming out (priorities, priorities). the ramifications of this case are going to have a significant impact on family law (and the re-defining of the term "family") for years to come. the gist of the matter is that a lesbian couple (well, former couple, as they've gone their separate ways) utilized the services of a male acquaintance as a sperm donor in order to have a couple of children. after the break-up, a court ordered the ex-partner of the birth mother to pay $1,000 a month in child support. in response to that order, the partner sought to have the court force the sperm donor to ante up. the court said no, but an appellate court overturned that decision. compounding the problem now is the fact that the sperm donor died, so if the case can be made that the donor is on the hook for support, there will be social security survivor benefits available to pay child support from.
so, back to the scriptures above. it's become rather commonplace for lesbian couples to decide they want to have children "of their own" even though that is physically impossible. so the next best thing is to employ the services of someone with the necessary equipment to get the job done. the article states that the sperm donor "helped" the couple conceive. helped?? a lesbian couple CANNOT conceive, no matter how much "help" they get. two women cannot conceive children together, so this takes our donor out of the "helper" category. the DONOR and the BIRTH MOTHER conceived the children plain and simple. its' also interesting to note that the article stated that "the process was very informal. the birth mother was inseminated at home." what does that mean exactly? i doubt that fertility doctors make house calls, so there's a lot of speculation as to just how informal a "procedure" it was. anyhow, the whole episode smacks of sexual immorality, with more than just a little bit of greed thrown in for good measure.
one of the many thorny issues this has raised for the courts to figure out is that there are THREE parental figures involved, whereas most states' custody and support laws are written, and rightly so, under the assumption that there are only TWO parents. additionally, without having first-hand knowledge of what was going through the mind of the non-birth-parent partner in the case at hand, it seems that she decided that her responsibility as a "parent" only went as far as her commitment to the relationship she was in. when that was over and she got tagged for child support, she started looking for somebody else to foot the bill. so now the very foundation of the traditional family, not to mention family law, has been turned upside down, and no one is quite sure how to proceed or where this will all end up.
there is no provision in God's word for a) same sex unions, and b) third party participation in pro-creation. however, this whole third party business is not exclusive to same-sex relationships. what about heterosexual couples that cannot conceive children in the traditional way? same thing as far as i can tell. i just dont believe God is honored or glorified when a wife has sperm placed inside of her from a man that is not her husband. i dont have a problem with in-vitro fertilization or medically-assisted insemination where the husband's sperm is used to impregnate his wife when, for whatever reasons, the wife cannot become pregnant through normal sexual relations. but there is just no place within a marriage for the introduction of a third person's genes, chromosomes and DNA. surrogate mothers? no to that, too. there is a mountain of court proceedings which tell us that many donors and surrogates at some point begin to feel a bond with the children they created, and what at first seemed like a simple, even impersonal "contribution" turns into a nightmare for all involved. as can be seen in the account of abraham, sarah and hagar, the wife who cannot conceive can often be adversely affected as well.
many people claim that the Word of God is outmoded, archaic and impractical for application in a modern society. God is not an idiot. He knew and knows what's best for mankind. while we may believe we know better, a quick perusal of the headlines would tell us that left to our own devices, we have little to contribute other than chaos and confusion.
11 Comments:
Your thoughts here have raised some questions with me that I hope that you may have time to answer:
1) At one point you argue against homosexuality from a naturalist position (the plumber example), but then you say you have no problem with "medically-assisted insemination." Isn't this also unnatural? Where's the consistency?
2) Your argument against surrogacy is that "there is a mountain of court proceedings" indicating the "nightmare" that can result from it, but you also state earlier in the post that in other cases the courts, because of outdated assumptions in the written law, cannot effectively deal with these family law situations. Couldn't it also be that the laws for dealing with surrogacy cases simply need to be updated, which seems to make more sense than to say that surrogacy is wrong just because it causes difficulty for some courts?
3) Couldn't the number of artificial inseminations among the population of homosexuals be reasonably seen as a byproduct of of discrimination against homosexual couples in the area of adoption? In the current system, it is difficult for courts to take children away from drug using and abusive heterosexual parents simply because there is "a mother and father" who say they want the child. In my view, there are numerous homosexual adults out there who could provide a MUCH better life for some of these children, but they are often not allowed...insemination becomes the next viable solution for them. Why not begin to solve the problem at the base by quitting the use of outdated, discriminating law, and truly beginning to do what is best for the children?
Questions, questions.
mark... good questions that i'm happy to answer as best as i can...
1) in the case of a married couple, where the "mechanics" are fine (re: the plumber illustration) but for whatever reason the eggs and the sperm arent making that love connection, i see no problem with some assistance there... FOR THE MARRIED COUPLE. no moral provision for this where it involves a same-sex couple, or an unmarried heterosexual couple for that matter. additionally, i just dont see how it is a Godly concept for a wife to have the sperm of a man who is not her husband implanted into her. you say i'm arguing from a "naturalist" position... i say i'm arguing from a Godly position.
2) i would come at this from the opposite position as you. you say the courts are operating from an outdated set of laws, and that i believe surrogacy is wrong because it causes the courts problems. i say that the courts are having problems because surrogacy is wrong. i believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever, therefore i believe that to be true of His Word too. the courts are having the problems they are having because they are dealing with situations that have arisen because of people's disobedience to God and what He has put into place in regards to families. you really think that THREE parents is a good thing? i think the story of abraham, sarah and hagar is a perfect case in point. in a crude sort of way, they entered into an agreement of surrogacy, and quite frankly we're living with the consequences of that decision even today.
3) i agree with you here. it is a byproduct of discrimination against homosexual couples in the area of adoption. i happen to be of the mindset that homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt. since i believe homosexuality to be wrong, how could i agree that they should be allowed to adopt, or "have" children of "their own" for that matter. i would disagree with you that it is difficult for the courts to take children out of situations where their parents are abusive or drug or alcohol addicted. you wouldnt believe the waiting list we have here at the children's home for kids in this situation.
you say we are using outdated, discriminating law that should be done away with. so which parts of the bible do you suggest we start "updating" or doing away with? and who should be in charge of that undertaking?
You ended your last comment with this question - "you say we are using outdated, discriminating law that should be done away with. so which parts of the bible do you suggest we start "updating" or doing away with? and who should be in charge of that undertaking?"
The above question implies that Federal and State laws in the U.S. are equivalent to the Bible! I think you'd have quite a bit of "translational acrobatics" to do yourself in order to argue that, so don't insinuate that I am seeking to revise scripture when I am talking about the courts.
I have a couple short replies to the answers you've offered for each of the numbered questions:
1) What I'm saying is that either you SHOULD have a problem with artificial insemination in ANY case, or you should not use the naturalist "plumbing" argument against homosexuals. If you cannot argue consistently from biology, then people will see you condemning SOME "unnatural" biological practices, yet shrugging them off when it happens to suit you, which is hypocritical.
2)Again, I find it inconsistent to support artificial insemination where it helps a heterosexual, married couple "make that love connection" and then disagree with the practice of surrogacy, when most surrogacy simply does the SAME thing - it is a way of helping a married couple produce their own genetic offspring in the case that the wife's body cannot bring a baby to term, so they get "some assistance" on that part. Why support one kind of unnatural assistance yet decry another?
3) You said in your last response: "Since i believe homosexuality to be wrong, how could i agree that they should be allowed to adopt, or 'have' children of "their own" for that matter?" I believe smoking to be wrong, Dean, and I can bring scripture to bear on my position if need be, but what kind of self-righteous megalomaniac would I be if I announced that because smoking is wrong, smokers should not be allowed to adopt or have any children? There are countries like that, but the United States is, thankfully, not one of them. There is a big difference between believing a behavior to be wrong and trying to cut people off from the freedom to have some of the most fundamental of human experiences in this world (i.e. the love of a child). So, you ask, "how could I agree that they should be allowed to adopt...?" - Well, in light of the need for loving homes suggested by that long "waiting list" you've mentioned, I ask, "as a caring human being, how could you not?"
The homosexual thing with adoption, insemination or otherwise: two mothers? two fathers? HUH?!!! I mean, obviously the homosexual "community" wants this, but that doesn't mean that 2 percent of the nation's population should de-sensitize everyone else from what is right. It's not about convictions or personal morality, we have to draw a line and scream to the world NO. Yet, in the name of tolerance, the church has turned impotent (no pun intended) when it comes to confronting these moral issues. It takes a MAN to produce a seed to fertilize the egg. Common sense even says that ONLY a man and a woman (married or not) can be the mother and father. If it's two women, who's the father? A mother (female) AND a father (male) who are both involved in the
lives of their children are important, and should be held as sacred.
Artificial insemination with another sperm donor: it's a thinker. I can see the parallel between Abraham's situation and the sperm or egg donor issue. Any time the reproductive seed is mentioned in any way in the Bible, it is to be respected. I personally wouldn't do it, however I personally don't have much of an opinion (really!) on this one.
Artificial insemination between the mother and father: no problem. If they can't conceive with their own seed the "natural way", and can with the assistance of medical science with their own seed, I don't think there should be anything wrong with that morally, biblically, or otherwise.
Surrogacy: I disagree with you on this one, Dean. I think that surrogacy is a great new thing in medical science where conception has occurred between the mother and father and a third party carries the child to term. That's a beautiful gift (not to be sold, PLEASE!).
mark...
many of our laws are certainly BASED on scripture. would you not agree that laws that have been on the books for centuries that kept homosexual acts, marriages and civil unions from taking place (until now) are based on scripture?
the courts are encountering these problems because of the twisting of morality that goes on in society today. the introduction of a third party into a marriage, in my view, is immoral, whether it be a third party sperm donor, a surrogate, or whatever one would call a woman who is impregnated with a man's sperm because that man's wife is infertile... especially when there are so many children in need of adoption. perhaps adoption may even be a better alternative to artificial insemination of a wife with her own husband's sperm, but i certainly dont have a problem with that type of artificial means between 2 people joined together in the sacred bonds of marriage. my concern isnt only with biology... the point of the "plumbing" illustration is that it points to how God created man and woman to be physically compatible... the "parts" fit together... they were MADE to fit together. thats the biology of it. to subvert that compatibility is to go against God's design, and its wrong. a man and woman joined together in marriage who have some sort of medical problem certainly should benefit from advances made in that field of medicine. a same-sex couple have no medical problem... they have a physical incompatability problem, and a biblical morality problem. i'm not as into this whole "naturalist" argument as i am into what is biblically and morally acceptable. i think what WOULD be hypocritical of me would be to say i believe homosexuality is biblically wrong (which i believe it is), and then condone homosexual couples "conceiving" or otherwise raising children. since i believe homosexuality is wrong, i could not agree that they should be given the opportunity to bring children up to believe that it is a normal and acceptable lifestyle. sorry if that makes me intolerant and/or bigoted (OR a self-righteous megalomaniac for that matter:-). i guess i'm also intolerant of adultery, lying, drunkenness and murder, to name just a few other sins.
the smoking angle you brought up is certainly a "thinker" as TJ would put it. the MPAA has recently come out and said that they'll now consider smoking in movies as part of their criteria for issuing a rating, so we may already be heading down that road, and quite frankly, i'm not sure how bad a thing i think that is, considering the obvious health risks associated with smoking and second-hand smoke. along those lines, if a person or couple that abused alcohol were considering adoption, i would certainly be against them being allowed to adopt.
incidentally, did you know that in arkansas, you can actually be denied as a foster parent or an adoptive parent if you have a certain number of moving violations? our american society isnt as pure and virtuous as you think it is when it comes to cutting off peoples' freedoms, mark.
tj...
for me, the surrogacy thing was really the only "thinker" for me. on its face, it would seem to be a great thing for couples where the wife cannot carry to term. however, that bond that seems to develop between surrogate and the baby inside, even though the baby carries none of the surrogate's DNA, is often such a powerful bond that in a number of cases, the surrogate will change her mind (or her heart) and not want to relinquish the baby upon its birth. much heartache ensues all the way around. it just seems that the introduction of a third party into a marriage on that intimate a level is a disruption of biblical proportions. i realize that probably it works out in more cases than not (although i have no statistics on it), but for what it's worth, that's my feeling about it.
Wow.I just dont know what else to say......Wow.
Final thought: Whereas I have to agree with you on the horrible way the people in your post went about getting their baby (not very smart), I am still shocked by the way you came out so staunchly against letting people with different values than you have babies PERIOD. I just think you are headed down an indefensible slippery slope there. For instance, if you believe that a gay or lesbian couple should not be able to raise kids because they believe differently than you, does that mean that a Buddhist or Hindu couple should not be allowed to raise kids either? What about Wiccans? Where are you going to draw the line? Should all the children in the world whose parents have different ideologies than yourself be rounded up and placed into good "Baptist Homes?"
We don't have to agree with the way others live, but I don't believe it's responsible to dehumanize people, denying them basic human freedoms such as procreation.
Concerning your comment to me that "i guess i'm also intolerant of adultery, lying, drunkenness and murder, to name just a few other sins," I'd like to point out that all of these things you call sins here are ALSO things that one can be prosecuted for in a court of law. Being a homosexual parent is not. Nobody could rightly call you "intolerant" because you disapprove of crime...society as a whole is "intolerant" of crimes, you could say. To my knowledge, there is absolutely no crime involved with a gay/lesbian person raising children, so your comparison of it to the other things you've mentioned is certainly mistaken.
mark...
since this was your final thought, i hesitated to post another reply, and i understand that we wont continue to revisit this. but since your final thought contained additional questions of me, i wanted to answer them here...
you asked: "...if you believe that a gay or lesbian couple should not be able to raise kids because they believe differently than you, does that mean that a Buddhist or Hindu couple should not be allowed to raise kids either? What about Wiccans? Where are you going to draw the line? Should all the children in the world whose parents have different ideologies than yourself be rounded up and placed into good "Baptist Homes?"
you've lumped religious groups in with gays. homosexuality isnt a religion. it is, by biblical description, an immoral lifestyle (an abomination in fact). additionally, my objection to gay couples raising children includes the fact that it is a physical impossibility for them to bring a child into the world. dont confuse that with heterosexual couples that have some sort of medical problem that prevents them from conceiving. as i said in an earlier comment, the inability of a same-sex couple to conceive is not a medical problem, but rather a physical incompatibility problem. i do object to any couple bringing children into this world that do so out of wedlock. no matter how much the laws of this land have been perverted and twisted by state legislatures and activist judges, you will never be able to show me in the bible where a homosexual "marriage" or any type of homosexual relationship is not a sin. in fact, ANY sex outside of marriage is a sin. and btw, i can think of far worse fates for children than to live in a "good baptist home." :-)
as for being against people with different values than me have babies PERIOD, i assume you're referring back to the situations i cited wherein a couple would have to introduce a third party into their marriage in order to conceive. i believe adoption in these cases is the far better alternative, and i wouldnt have a problem at all with married couples in these situations "having" children via adoption.
you stated: "We don't have to agree with the way others live, but I don't believe it's responsible to dehumanize people, denying them basic human freedoms such as procreation."
same-sex couples cannot procreate, so i'm not dehumanizing them at all. the facts are the facts. their inability to procreate doesnt make them less human, it simply points to the fact that they are living a lifestyle that is against God's plan, and therefore is an unworkable situation so far as conceiving children goes.
your last paragraph concerning the sins i listed as also being crimes under the laws of our land... i think this is where we are having so much disagreement on this issue. you're approaching this from a legal standpoint, and i'm approaching it from a biblical standpoint. there are a number of other sins besides homosexuality that are not crimes in this country, including idolatry, gossip, gluttony and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. my stance on this issue comes purely from the perspective of "is this a sin?" just because the law says something is ok (either by specifically allowing it, or by simply not prohibiting it), doesnt mean it is.
At the risk of cracking this egg wider, I'd like to belatedly contribute a thought.
I don't think having children is a basic human freedom. I think children are a gift of life from God.
Homosexual couples are biologically denied that gift. A secular judicial system may seek to step into the role of God and "bless" a sinful union with children. I do not think that it is in any way scripturally supported.
I agree with Jeff...AND with EVERYTHING that you said in your post Dean! Good job!
Post a Comment
<< Home